Early Camp thoughts so far

[Onlyu]

Carrington is already our best receiver and it’s not close…he’s a huge pickup and if he stays healthy will impact every game.  He and Wilson on the outside and Simpkins and Singleton (little nicked with a hammy – nothing serious) inside in 4 receiver sets.  Pretty damn good group.  McCormick has a little of the dropsies, Dana is inconsistent, Hampton is much improved over the spring, Thompson is behind a little but great athletically and Nurse is athletic as hell but a bit of a project.  Vickers makes a big difference and needs to get in soon – explosive playmaker…high hopes. The surprise is Nucua…absolutely tearing it up so far but struggling with alignment, concept and reads.  Will be very good before it’s all said and done.  One of our wideouts is over on defense.

Hughes and Blackmon at corner but Johnson nipping at their heels.  Need Lewis to come in because word is he’s a stud and might push Hobbs at Nickel.  Burgess also in the mix and gonna be good for us.

Great shape at Tight End but not sure how much they will be used yet.  Siale is a week away from joining but Harrison should be a matchup nightmare in this offense with his length.

Ballard is very good but doesn’t get sideline to sideline like Marcus…no one does, that’s we he’s going to be an All Pro!!   Blair is extremely athletic will help for sure.

We are in excellent shape with our RB’s with Moss, Shyne and DHC.  

Thompson and Barton in a battle for the 3rd backer spot but all 4 will play a lot.  Backers will be better.

Williams is ahead of Huntley.  Bateman still 3rd today. 

More physical talent then we’ve EVER had before.  Schedule is the concern.  Go 7 deep on the O-line…anything close to last years injuries there and Vegas’ prediction of 6.5 is dead on.  If that group stays healthy we win 8-10.  

Have to beat BYU and AZ first league game which sets up a “game day” possibility with Stanford at 4-0.  Beat UCLA and Furd at home and then steal 1 of Oregon, Wash or USC (not likely on the road) and win the games your favored in and your at 9-10 wins.

 

 

[Utah]

Thanks. I thought the same about Nacua after spring ball. When he “gets it” he will be amazing.

This is where I think our fans haven’t fully realized what we’ve done as PAC-12 vs BYU (shoehorn time). We have so much more talent than they do.

Mangum “might” start for us. They don’t have a RB, OL, TE or WR (outside of Trinnaman) who would start for us, and Trinnaman might not even be good enough for that.

They don’t have a DL that would start for us. They don’t have a safety that would start for us. They might have a CB. Maybe.

Luafatasaga is a better LB than what they have but Warner is better than anyone we have after Luafatasaga.

So, out of all their players, only Warner would start for us.

Only Mangum, Trinnaman, Lake, and Warner have a shot at starting for us.

We are so much more talented than they are. It’s shocking, especially seeing both teams in person.

There is a reason why we had 6 TO’s last year and won. We are on another level from BYU talent wise.

[UteThunder]

I love the optimism, but I think you’re a bit over the top as far as any talent disparity. I think there are at least a couple more of their guys who could start for us, and there are probably some guys who are equal to our starters.

 

[Utah]

I like these discussions. Who would you take? 

[ironman1315]

I would take Koroma, maybe but only from an experience standpoint. Takitaki, but I think Tupai and Anae are actually better, again from just an experience standpoint. That’s it. 

[Utah]

I’m not sure I’d take Takitaki over Repp and Hart, let alone Anae, Fitts, Tupai. 

[ironman1315]

I’d never take any y guy over fitts. But Takitaki is good enough to beat out Hart. And, odds are, if he was here he’d be really good. But it really is just experience for me. Other than that and s couple you picked and my two additions I wouldn’t go get much else.

[Onlyu]

Might be right but Repp is only 220 lbs and wil be nothing more than a passing situation guy like Pita T until he gets bigger.  I expected more from Hart but the thought seems to be lukewarm inside on whether he contributes this year.  

Love Anae but he is still young and even with the experience he gets “sped up” mentally so they’re trying to slow him down, he jumps offsides a lot in practice and just has to learn to control that stuff…I would also take him over Takitaki.  

Fitts is an absolute beast and the best DE in the state, one of the best in the West for sure…Kafusi is probably really good for them this year with his length as well.

Good points on Takitaki and Koroma though

[Utah]

Lewis Powell is in love with Repp. He thinks he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I don’t think he will break out this year, but if you believe Powell, Repp is the real deal. 

[Utah]

I’d love Koroma on Utah. I don’t think he’d start for us. 

[UteThunder]

In addition to the guys you already mentioned, here are the guys/position groups that I think may be equal to or better than our starters.

OL – 4 of their 5 OL are returning starters from last year. I’m not saying that makes them automatically better than who we have, but that experience is a great equalizer especially when you consider we only have 1 returning starter there. Koroma is the one guy who I would say for sure starts for us. There are probably 1 or 2 others who are at least equal to some of the guys we have there.

DL – I’m not as familiar with their DL, but I think a guy like Kaufusi would start over Anae.

LB – Butch Pau’u would start for us right alongside Fred Warner, no question.

CB – Both of their starting corners would be in contention to start for us this year. It goes back to game experience just like the OL. They might not be better athletes than our guys, but right now they are probably better players.

RB – Until Shyne and Moss prove they can stay healthy and prove they are more than just capable, I would put Canada right on their level. He’s not better than our guys, but our guys haven’t shown they are better than him either.

WR – Other than Carrington, do we have any WRs who have shown they are better than BYU’s? I don’t think so. Their first 4 WRs might be just as good as our 2nd through 5th WRs, with Carrington being our 1st.

K – Right now, we don’t know what we have at kicker. They return their starter who didn’t have great range, but was very consistent for them and made some clutch kicks for them.

[Utah]

OL – Here’s what Harding has said: Paulo is the most talented Guard he’s ever coached. Barton was good enough to start for Utah last year, Bolles was just amazing. Both of BYU’s tackles suck. Barton and Uhatafe (Utah’s Tackles) would both start at BYU. If Paulo is more talented than Asiata, then he’d start at BYU. That leaves Agasiva and Falemaka. Koroma is about 5’10 and 290. Falemaka is 6’4 290. I’d bet Lo has an additional 6 inches on his wingspan than Koroma. 

Look, I like Koroma. He is great at what he does. He is also too small. PFF graded him out as the #2 center in college football last year, yet he is not going to get drafted. You can’t have someone that small at our level and be successful at that position. 

So, maybe one guard spot a BYU player would have a shot at. 

Kaufusi is getting Jake Heaps like level of over-hyping. He had one ok season vs a terrible schedule, he has terrible technique and a brother who was great. Fitts, Anae, Tupai are all better than he is. Is he better than Repp, Hart, or Hamilton? Powell thinks Hamilton and Repp are NFL bound. I don’t think Kaufusi NFL bound. I don’t think Kaufusi is in our three deep at DE. 

LB – Warner would 100% start for us. We only start two LB’ers. Luafatasaga is the best LB in the state. So, Pau’u would not start for us. 

CB – I agree. I said that in my first post. I think Lake and Warner could compete for starting spots. I don’t think they’d win spots though. Our CB’s look really talented. 

RB – There isn’t a soul on earth that would put Canada as good as Shyne, Moss, DHC.

WR – Carrington is a star. He’s the clear #1. We agree on that. BYU’s top returning reciever had 28 catches and 321 yards. Singleton had 27 catches for 464 yards. So, at best, Trinnaman would be #3 at Utah. I’m ok with putting him there. I think Simpkins, Hamilton, Thompson, Nurse, Nacua will all end up better than Trinnaman, but for this year, I’d have him #3 or #4. 

[UteThunder]

I can buy most of that, though a lot of it sounds like hyperbole laden coach speak. How many times has Whit said something like “best QB situation in the country” or “deepest, most talented WR we’ve ever had” only to have those claims not be backed up once the season started. One claim I don’t buy is the RBs.

First of all, DHC has one career carry for 2 yards so he is not even part of the conversation.

The statistics for Shyne, Moss, and Canada are remarkably similar. And if we are to believe that BYU’s OL is as bad as you suggest in comparison not only to this year’s Utah line, but last year’s especially, then that makes Canada’s performance all the better because he was running behind a $#!+ OL.

Shyne: 78 carries, 373 yds, 4.8 ypc, 4 TD

Moss: 84 carries, 382 yds, 4.5 ypc, 2 TD

Canada: 74 carries, 315 yds, 4.3 ypc, 2 TD

 

[ironman1315]

Wjat defense of note did Canada play against? Moss and shine got those numbers against ISC and some other decent defenses.

[UteThunder]

“USC and some other decent defenses” you say?

Moss and Shyne did play well against USC, and Moss played alright against BYU, but the majority of their yards came against some really bad rush defenses.

Their best games came against the following rush defenses:

Moss: #9 BYU, #31 USC, #122 San Jose State, #127 Cal 

Shyne: #31 USC, #83 Arizona, #122 San Jose State, #127 Cal 

Canada did the bulk of his damage against the following ranked rushing defenses:

#51 Michigan State, #67 Toledo, #69 Boise State, #75 Cincinnati, and #91 Utah State

That’s not USC or BYU, but it is certainly better than Arizona, Cal, and San Jose State.

[noneyadb]

Moss was a freshman, dealing with turf toe injury majority of season. Shyne was a juco transfer first year in the Utah system and won the starting position before Williams retired.

[UteThunder]

And that makes them clearly better than Canada . . . how exactly?

[noneyadb]

Makes what they were able to accomplish their first year more impressive and by far better than what Canada did his first year at BYU- 1att 1yd vs Utah.

Common opponents Arizona, SUU, UCLA

Shyne– 1st year Juco transfer

SUU- 8/19 2.38avg beats Canada

Arizona- 19/101 5.32avg beats Canada

UCLA- didn’t play

 

Moss– Freshman

SUU- didn’t play

Arizona- didnt play

UCLA 4/6 1.5avg injured.

Canada– Sophmore

SUU 6/5 0.83avg

Arizona 3/6 2.0avg

UCLA 1/2 2.0avg

 

[UteThunder]

So your idea of a valid comparison is to throw out the majority of all of their performances, including their best performances, and focus on the games in which they all had little or no carries? Common opponents doesn’t mean jack when there is so little data to compare. Or are you admitting that Canada is better than Moss based on those numbers?

 

[noneyadb]

You crack me up thunder.

Your the one claiming BYU has the better RB’s, Please prove what makes Canada and Hill sooo much better than Moss and Shyne.

Since common opponent is the best way to compare the two positions, Shyne is by far better RB than Canada.

 

[UteThunder]

When did I claim that? 

I said . . . 

“I would put Canada right on their level. He’s not better than our guys, but our guys haven’t shown they are better than him either.”

And comparing common opponents isn’t the best way when one guy gets the start and 19 carries while the other guy backs up the best RB in his school’s history and only gets 3 carries.

My position from the start has been that Canada is right there with Moss and Shyne, and he might be good enough to start for us. So far, I have provided ample evidence to back up that claim while you have provided very little to refute it. I look forward to hopefully being proven wrong by their on field performance this year.

[noneyadb]

Your stance of discrediting what Shyne and Moss accomplished vs USC because they didn’t back it up, implied that.

But honestly, ranking defenses solely on yards/game average is ridiculous. Michigan State with a #51 ranked defense played Furman? and Rutgers, a team with a defense near top 50 shouldn’t finish a season 3-9. That’s why I stated Toledo and Boise were Canada’s best efforts both teams finished with 9+ win seasons. 

Until a defensive ranking system comes out that includes strength of schedule, play style of opponent, yards held above/below season average, and a hell of a lot more metrics than just yards/game allowed, common opponent paints the clearest picture. 

Comparing Arizona game Jamal Williams who you stated was their best RB had 29 caries for 162 yds. Shyne was right on pace with Williams. 19/101 yds.

But all this is a bunch of nonsense because the only players that may start at Utah are their linebackers, and even that’s questionable this year.

[noneyadb]

Your right Canada with that less than 1yd per carry average against SUU is mighty intimidating. He’s clearly better than Moss or Shyne.

[noneyadb]

Toledo 67th ranked rush defense and Boise 69th, clearly Canada’s best efforts.

USC ranked 31st rush defense Shyne had a  4.4 yd average.

[UteThunder]

Nice selective stats. Canada’s best performance was the 6 carries for 50 yards(an 8.3 ypc average) against the #51 ranked rush defense, Michigan State.

[crazyute]

Michigan state was hot garbage last year. You’re funny!

[UteThunder]

And Arizona, Cal, and San Jose State were the creme de la creme?  

[crazyute]

You’re the one pumping Michigan state. Good comeback?

[Sweetness]

Look, Canada is not as good as moss and Shyne. He is an ok back, but as a redshirt junior it sounds like he may be getting unseated this year to some lower level recruits at BYU. Moss was a true freshman and showed very high level patience and vision, which is a great skill (see leveon bell) and Arman shyne looked to be a guy with power and speed that looked every bit the part of a P12 back. I’m not saying they are sure things and 1,000 yard backs, but in my estimation they’re both on a separate tier from Canada.  

[UteThunder]

All of that may end up being true, but all we have right now are their known production levels which paint the picture that they are all relatively equal. If people want to argue that Moss and Shyne have more upside, I’m all ears and would agree with that position. But this whole discussion has been about who on BYU’s roster could start for Utah. Based on their production from last year, there is no objective reason to believe Canada isn’t on the same level as Moss and Shyne and that he wouldn’t be in the mix to start if he were on Utah’s roster.

[Puget Ute]

Based on this video, 100% of Canada’s yards come after contact. He was hit in the backfield on nearly every play, and still put up 315 yards behind a porous OL. I will admit that is very impressive.

[KJU]

Watched the Video and he does get hit behind the line of scrimmage often. The interesting thing is even though he is strong and can push the pile, he has problems breaking tackles. In all of those carries I counted him breaking 4 tackles. Pretty average.

[PlainsUte]

But Shyne and Moss were warming the bench for Joe Williams, so their upside is pretty much unknown.  

That’s a relatively small sample size of carries for comparative stats for all of them, but with that caveat, Canada is still last in all stats cited.

[UteThunder]

And Canada was warming the bench for their Williams . . . what is your point?

[PlainsUte]

Canada is still last in all stats cited

[UteThunder]

But put up similar numbers behind an inferior OL playing against better rush defenses on average.

[Sweetness]

Have you watched him play? He’s not on the same level. I agree with a lot of what you said about the other players, but Canada is just not that great. Look up his highlights. He’s a little undersized, and doesn’t do anything real well. He lacks burst, his vision’s not very good, he’s just an average talent. There’s a reason everyone in Provo is worried about the running back spot. Shyne and moss have both showed much more than Canada.

[UteThunder]

Ok, I just can’t even debate this any further if you are going to say things like “he’s a little undersized” regarding Canada. The three of them are practically the exact same size!

Moss = 5’10” 210 lbs

Shyne = 5’11” 210 lbs

Canada = 5’11” 205 lbs

[BJA 13]

You forgot Ty Detmer….he would for sure start for us.  😋

[Puget Ute]

TD would be a backup QB coach on our staff.

[Onlyu]

Probably right…a few more players like Koroma and Tataki that most likely find their way onto the field. Where I agree with Utah above is the overall depth across the board. In essence everyone of our starters would either start or push to start at the TDS and our 2’s would replace their 2’s in almost every case.

Do they have enough talent to beat us on occasion? Yes. But they don’t have anywhere close to the talent we have as a whole. The comparison of that depth truly isn’t close.

Five straight years of PAC12 recruiting has done that. Things weren’t exactly exciting and going well under Bronco so they missed on a lot of guys. Sitake probably changes that some but outside of the LDS kid that grows up wanting that experience the kids they land with National P5 big time offers will be few and far between.

in the Old WAC they were the top dog…got who hey wanted, when they wanted but that has changed. As much as they don’t want to acknowledge that fact it’s the truth.

In my lifetime and growing up in the BYU heyday never in a million years would I have believed we’d land out of state kids with offers to UCLA , USC, Stanford, Alabama, Oregon, etc. and now it happens as much as it doesn’t! Unreal.

[Utah]

Takitaki hasn’t played in two years. Two years ago he was a poor man’s Pita T. Very good pass rusher, can’t play the run. He is so hyped up and people will be disappointed. Well, not Utah fans. Ha ha.

Koroma is good. No one is saying that. But he is a mid major warrior. He wouldn’t start for us or even get a chance to because of his size. He struggles vs P5 pass protection because he is just too small. 

 

[Puget Ute]

A big part of the reason they were so dominant in the old WAC was their budget for the Athletic Dept was nearly twice as large as the nearest competitors, and was many times larger than the AD of the lower level competitors. They threw big money into athletics and they dominated as a result.

Note their AD has always been self-sufficient because they have excellent fundraising abilities, sell tons of tickets, and efficiently run the dept. This fact is admirable, and they should be commended for running a clean program. But it must be acknowledged that they had a huge advantage in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s.

[geaux-sioux]

I don’t know, I heard you guys are gonna suck….

[ironman1315]

I give this honor to only my favorite non Utah fan posters.

[FtheY]

That’s the kicker – win the games you’re favored in. Is it just me wearing red goggles, or does it seem that we often times aren’t favored? Obvious ones we are, but I feel like any sort of toss up goes the other way.