Williams vs Mangum, Power 5 opponents only

[Utah]

Mangum: 

97/183, 53%, 969 yards, 5 TD’s, 4 INT’s

19/36, 52%, 193 yards per game, 1 TD, .8 INT

Williams: 

177/304, 2034 yards, 11 TD’s, 4 INT’s

17/30, 58%, 203 yards, 1.1 TD’s, .4 INT

Show me where Mangum is the better QB. Oh, and Mangum is older as well. 

Mangum’s best game? 

He didn’t have one. They were all terrible. It might be against Utah. Williams’ best game was vs USC. Let’s compare the two:

Mangum: 25/56, 45%, 315 yards, 2 TD’s, 3 INT’s. He lost to Utah.

Williams: 21/34, 62%, 270 yards, 2 TD’s, 0 INT’s. He beat a top 3? top 5? team. 

Troy Williams is the better QB and it’s not even that close. BYU fans will be shocked when Mangum goes out and craps the bed this year. His hype is reaching Heaps levels. 

[Rick]

One of Mangum’s strenghts in his first season is throwing jump balls to his tall skinny receivers.  All of those tall receivers have all graduated.  This season had a 6’6″ slow senior that never plays and a 6’4″ true freshman who has never played.  The rest are 6’3″ or shorter.  Shumway is the 6’3″ WR and he wouldn’t even see the field at Utah.

[Puget Ute]

Trinnaman would get good reps at Utah. I am sure a few other WRs would see the field. But we are simply stacked at WR right now and a season with a solid passing game will pay dividends with future recruits.

[Rick]

Well we recruited the crap out of Trinnaman and didn’t get him.  He is more of a Ute type receiver than BYU/Mangum type at 6 foot even.

[Puget Ute]

He is a great player and I hope he has a fantastic career.

[Chase54]

You are on a roll today. I love it.

[crazyute]

I can’t wait to see thunder come in and stick up for Mangum.

[UteThunder]

Since you asked, here is the argument for Mangum: It begins with experience and ends with SOS.

Mangum was out of football for 3 years while Williams has been playing continuously since high school. Troy played at Washington for two years(redshirt in 2013) before transferring to a JC for a year. Troy was much better prepared to play football in 2016 than Mangum was in 2015.

Then you have to look at the SOS for each QB.

The P5 teams Mangum faced were a combined 39-22. The worst P5 team they played was 5-7 Missouri who had the number 6 ranked overall defense in 2015. Then there was Michigan and Utah who both won 10 games and had two of the best defenses in the country. AND, he didn’t play a single one at home!

Williams did face some good P5 teams, but he also faced some bad ones. The P5 teams he faced were a combined 63-63 and included some BAD defenses in Cal, Arizona, Oregon, and Arizona State. Plus, Williams had the advantage of playing 4 of the P5 teams at home.

Then you have to factor in the talent around them. Both QBs have a P5 resume from a recruiting perspective, but if we are to believe the overall recruiting narrative for both teams, Williams was surrounded by P5 talent and Mangum was surrounded by G5 talent.

Add it all together and of course Williams is going to have better numbers than Mangum. All factors considered, I think you have to say they are equal at the least but more likely I would give the nod to Mangum. The one X-factor is Williams knee injury. Depending on how much he was affected by that, maybe he is the better QB, but right now I would say it is Mangum.

[ironman1315]

Question: if he is superior why didn’t he beat out skip pass taysom?

[crazyute]

Meh not impressed. But your love for byu is interesting.

I know you like to think you ate level headed, but I think you just like being confrontational. And you do it in such a passive aggressive way.

Meant for thunder.

[UteThunder]

My love for BYU? Whatever you say champ.

More like I’m just able to look at them without red goggles.

It seems like most of our fans have the opinion that they don’t belong on the same field as us, and yet, year after year the game comes down to the final possession.

Either our athletes aren’t that far ahead of theirs, or we have some really bad coaches. Which is it?

I’m dying to hear your brilliant level-headed analysis. 

[ironman1315]

Or rivalry games are weird.

[UteThunder]

I could buy that as an explanation if it was the occasional game that was close, but it has been every game save a few over the last 20 years. 

[ironman1315]

How close have they really been these past 8 years. We have on obvious blow out in 2010. And the vegas bowl was long over before BYU made it “close” and Utah quit after the 1st quarter. Next look at last year. They had a+3 to ratio with two of them in easy scoring position. They lost. Every time Utah had a +3 margin it was a blowout. Utah is clearly superior and it’s not particularly close.

[UteThunder]

When it starts showing on the scoreboard, I’ll agree with you. Until then, you are just doing the same thing they do when they try to justify how they really won. 

The final score is all that matters, and for now, the final scores say they are neck and neck with us.

[ironman1315]

Then explain why they haven’t won in 8 years.

[UteThunder]

A combination of reasons. One of those would be that we have had some better players. But the close scores should tell you that they aren’t that far behind us in talent.

[Puget Ute]

It also explains why they have not dominated us since Tanner Mangum was 3 years old.

[Utah]

This is a bad argument. I’ve shown why before. Going into the fourth quarter since PACMAS, we’ve been up an average of two scores. 

Take for example the Vegas Bowl. BYU never had a chance to win that game. Not once. 

So, was that game close? Shouldn’t you have a chance to win a game before it’s close? 

[UteThunder]

That 4th quarter stat is probably a bit skewed by the 2011 blowout, and I would argue that bowl game was close. 

Any Ute fan who says they weren’t nervous when they cut the lead to 7 is a liar. Our offense hadn’t done anything since the first quarter and BYU’s offense had scored 4 TDs in 3 quarters. Every Ute fan was getting nervous at that point. And if the game wasn’t close, there would be no reason to be nervous.

[Anonymous]

Aye, and there’s the rub.

The reason for the close games each year has been our offense, and its inability to consistently move the ball at critical points in games. Last years examples are Cal, Oregon and byu.

[noneyadb]

Curious, did you like your own comment?

[UteThunder]

Nope, it turns out there is at least one other person here who respects/agrees with my opinions.

[ladyinred]

I respect your opinions and skepticism.
But I think some people on here are more than willing to acknowledge where the Utes have failures/shortcomings. I see plenty of self-deprecation, I don’t think it’s all red goggles.

Anyway, keep posting.

[Anonymous]

More than one.

[crazyute]

Why so I can read your passive aggressive approach. I’m not here to debate with you but you seem to be eager to do so with everyone here.

There is your analysis.

[crazyute]

you are a delusional zoob that just makes things up in your mind. I’m sorry you feel us mean ute fans are so harsh to your blue boys!! you should definitely stay here and continue to cry about it though.

[UteThunder]

I am a true Ute through and through. Your ridiculous belief that I am a BYU fan demonstrates what a complete jackass you are.

I’ll say this, if nothing else, your stupidity is very entertaining. 

[ladyinred]

Legit point. Why did Taysom get the nod ahead of Tanner? Is it because of what was supposedly promised to Taysom, or because he was the better QB? I realize they have different strengths, but it’s a valid question.

Tanner lost the job to Taysom, and I would take Troy every day of the week and twice on fridays over Taysom. 

[Utah]

Hill is a better passer than Mangum vs P5 schools. That’s why Hill was the starter. He was better. 

[UteThunder]

I can think of a few reasons.

It could be as simple as Hill was promised the starting job if he came back.

It could be that the team responded better to Hill as a leader than they did Mangum.

It could be that the combination of Hill’s athleticism and mediocre passing was better suited for success behind their lackluster OL than Mangum’s combination of superior passing and limited mobility.

It could be that Mangum’s mental health issues were taking a toll on him last year and he was outperformed by Hill as a result.

It could be that they worried about QB depth and figured they would ride Hill as far as they could before he got injured while keeping Mangum in their back pocket.  

Honestly, though, I don’t see what Hill has to do with anything in a comparison between Williams and Mangum. Coaches make bad personnel decisions all the time. Utah had moved Shyne ahead of Joe Williams on the depth chart before his knee injury. Does that mean Armand is better than Joe? Based on how Joe finished the year, I would say no.

[ironman1315]

According to sitake he wanted the best players to play. If you take that at face value then Hill was the best player ergo Mangum isn’t all that and Williams is clearly better than Hill.

As for the larger point of Mangums ability he’s unimpressive and will be unimpressive because he just isn’t that good and a healthy Williams is significantly better.

[UteThunder]

Best player can mean a lot of things. 

At Utah, I have heard of “better players” who were behind lesser players on the depth chart for reasons other than talent, usually their understanding of the playbook. I recall one safety specifically who admitted after his career at Utah was over that he was not the best safety on the team, but he was a starter because he understood the defense better than the other safeties who were better than he was.

You know, here is the sad thing. I want to agree with you guys so badly on this stuff. I would love nothing more than to have Mangum throw 30 INTs and lose every game. BUT, I would bet my left nut that he is going to put up numbers that are very good to great this year and they are going to win a lot of games. It’s what happens every year with those guys. There is no objective reason to believe it won’t happen again this year.

[ironman1315]

They’re going 1-3 in their first 4 games.

[UteThunder]

Oh my god, not this again. Every year since they went independent, Utah fans make this type of prediction. And every year BYU outperforms the prediction. I’m not going to take the time to look it up but every year they have surpassed the “BYU will start 0-4” or “BYU is going to be lucky to win 6 games this year” predictions I see from Utah fans. Every. Single. Year. 

I will be shocked if they aren’t 2-2 or better after the first 4. And I will be even more shocked if they don’t win at least 9 games this year.

[ladyinred]

They can still make it to 9 wins after losing to LSU, Utah, and Wisconsin. And I’m sure Tanner will put up big numbers in those 9 games, but let’s not pretend their schedule is remotely equal.

[UteThunder]

I don’t think their schedule even comes close to ours. That’s part of the reason I think they win 9 at worst. They are catching LSU and Utah at opportune times, plus Boise is probably going to be down. 

[ironman1315]

Or, if you look at least at last year, each of those teams they beat that were shockers weren’t because those teams were hot garbage. (Cough Arizona. Cough Michigan State. Cough Mississippi State.)

[UteThunder]

That doesn’t change the fact that BYU outperformed the predictions from Ute fans. Some of our fans were predicting BYU would start 1-7 or even 0-8 depending on how good Toledo turned out to be. Of course they far exceeded those predictions starting 4-4. 

[ladyinred]

Really? I don’t remember anyone predicting 0-8 or 1-7 that wasn’t meant at least somewhat tic. 

I predict tds will go 9-3, starting 1-3 though. 

[UteThunder]

It was likely on UF.N as I didn’t start posting here regularly until the end of last season. But there were definitely Ute fans making those types of predictions prior to last season. And they didn’t seem to be TIC.

[ironman1315]

They predicted that because we all thought zona Michigan state and Mississippi state would have been not hot garbage with a combined record of 11-25. And it’s not as though they s**t stomped Toledo or Arizona or Mississippi state. So they weren’t all that great last year either. They won’t be all that great this year. But their schedule will inflate their image.

[UteThunder]

Doesn’t change the fact that there are a lot of Utah fans who routinely underestimate BYU.

When I picked BYU to beat Arizona and Mississippi State last year, I took into account that those teams would likely not be as good as they had been the year prior. 

[ironman1315]

Congrats on the foresight. Doesn’t mean that the other posters were unreasonable to expect those teams to not be utter garbage last year.

I expect BYU to go 1-3 this year because LSU has Guice, who is probably more talented than Fournette, which BYU has no answer for. Wisconsin is going to be as good or better than last year. And Utah will be better as well.

[CyclingUte]

He’ll put up good numbers, especially looking at the teams they play. You look at their schedule and you see an easy 7 wins before you have to start even thinking about it.

[ladyinred]

Huh? Shyne moved up the depth chart ahead of Joe only because Joe was still retired at that point. I remember it all very clearly.

It’s not about comparing Troy to Taysom, except to point out that in theory, the best available QB gets the job. In this case, Taysom>Tanner, but Troy>Taysom. 

[UteThunder]

That’s not how I remember it, nor is it what I have seen others post here. Williams lost his starting role prior to quitting.

[ladyinred]

Didn’t Williams start against tds and then retire after tds? It was obvious he was in a total funk. If you are saying they moved Shyne up ahead of Joe after that tds game, then yes, they were absolutely right to do it. Joe stunk it up.

[FtheY]

I’m somewhere in the middle.

I don’t think Mangum is that great, but I don’t think he’s so bad that we can write him off either. 

Since it’s a rivalry game and anything can happen, we cannot underestimate him. 

[noneyadb]

Uhmm Williams was in for a total of 52 plays in 2014. 15 plays vs #2 Oregon on the road, and 36 plays vs #12 Arizona St at home…..

[UteThunder]

Oh, I see. I thought playing football in practice everyday for two years counted for something, but I guess not. SMH

The point is, Williams was involved in college football for 3 straight years while Mangum was sitting out not doing anything football related for 3 years before being thrown into the fire.  

[noneyadb]

BlueThunder it is.

This aggressive attitude when your claims are inaccurate is hilarious.

I’ll take Williams and his first full season playing D1 at a new program with a crap OC over Mangum any day of the week.

[UteThunder]

What claim was inaccurate? 

[Utah]

To be fair to Troy, every game but one, he played with an injured MCL. 

[UteThunder]

I mentioned that.

[St George Ute]

All I remember of Mangum a couple years ago was that he had a really bad tendency to just throw the ball deep and hope one of his tall/athletic receivers could catch it. He got a lot of his yards on deep throws, including 2-3 game winning hail marys.

He wasn’t nearly as athletic as Hill and he couldn’t scramble to save his life. Now, he may have very well gotten a whole lot better, but if he comes out playing like he did two years ago, he’s going to end up throwing a lot of INTs. He doesn’t have the receiver group he did then nor do their receivers have the same WR coach that taught them so well. 😉

[Anonymous]

Equanimity is a virtue not a vice. Seeing all sides of an argument is a sign of intelligence.