Powerful

[zeous]

[Utah]

Watched it all. Fear mongering at its finest. Brigham would be proud. The fear is strong in this one. He will pay his tithes out of hope for protection from our god. 

 

[zeous]

^ doesn’t understand the importance of being able to criticize (freedom of speech) nor the importance of the separation of church/synagouge/mosque and state. Nor, apparently, who the would-be wielders of fear to supress criticism are.

You keep tossing out accusations of fearfulness, while having fully submitted to the wishes of the political entity making moves against your culture. Submission is the ultimate evidence of a man’s fear.

[SkinyUte]

You keep tossing out accusations of fearfulness, while having fully submitted to the wishes of the political entity making moves against your culture.

I know I’m going to regret asking this, but am hoping you can clarify. Which political entity, what “moves”, and which “culture” are you talking about?

[zeous]

Islam (sharia law). Yes, it is political. U.S. Constitution and other similar western systems.

Great question.

[SkinyUte]

Thanks.

Again, just for clarification. Your position is that we (“we” defined as liberals/progressives, I assume) are collectively accepting of Sharia Law overtaking the US Constitution as the overarching rule of law in the US. Correct?

[zeous]

No. Thank you for seeking clarification in lieu of assuming and presenting as a strawman. Good on you.

I am saying it is folly to ignore the methods this political entity has demonstrated in various other countries to establish colonies and slowly work to overtake and replace the existing system with political Islam, from within.

The U.S. is not as far along in that process as Canada, apparently. And Canada is not as far along as Sweden or France. And Sweden and France are not as far along as Bosnia or Iran.

[ladyinred]

I just don’t think you can put the US on any similar spectrum to France as it relates to integration of Muslims though. France is frankly a basket case when it comes to their politics surrounding Muslims. I can’t imagine a burka/burkini ban being implemented in the US, for example, something which undermines its own purpose – and has backfired terribly as far as I can tell. I can’t comment on the other countries you mentioned, other than to say I’m sure Canada is influenced by France, and Sweden is probably unaccustomed to massive migrant/refugee influx so it wouldn’t surprise me if that is a mess as well.

I agree with the gist of your argument but…

^ doesn’t understand the importance of being able to criticize (freedom of speech) nor the importance of the separation of church/synagouge/mosque and state. Nor, apparently, who the would-be wielders of fear to supress criticism are.

For someone who harps on the necessity of criticism, you sure do have a tendency to lash out when its directed at you.

[zeous]

I just don’t think you can put the US on any similar spectrum to France as it relates to integration of Muslims though. France is frankly a basket case when it comes to their politics surrounding Muslims.

I think that is largely a consequence of them being internally divided even more than us (not sure how), Islamic colonies far stronger within its borders, more regular riots and attacks, and generally further along in the process Islam has used to convert other nations.  There is chatter in some circles that it may not be too surprising to see France “convert” in the relatively near future.

[Puget Ute]

It is very difficult for immigrants into France to obtain a work permit. As a result the Muslim immigrants (who came from countries other than former French colonies) can face 25%-30% unemployment, especially in the 18-35 yr-old males. This has gone on for decades and has led to plenty of problems, even well before the start of the Syrian Civil War. Of course this was a petri dish for radicalism.

[SkinyUte]

We obviously have very different definitions of “powerful”.

[gnUTE]

I watched through this and my question is, what part of this did you find powerful?  Does anyone really think there is a culture in America that makes it less acceptable to make fun of Muslims than Christians?  It seems to me that they are one of the few groups who can be openly mocked, used as villains in every action movie or TV show, and openly discriminated against by airpoirt security.  They are basically what Russians were when I was a kid.  I imagin in a few years we will treat North Koreans the same way.   

[AZswayze]

Liberals tend to demonize people who criticize Islam, even other liberals (see Sam Harris and Bill Maher vs Ben Affleck). Many of these same folks excoriate Christians at every turn. So, yes, on the left it is far less acceptable to mock Muslims than Christians. Maybe it’s a reflexive reaction to the bigotry of the far right, but it most certainly is a thing.

[Utah]

I agree with you BUT, seeing how most discrimination has come from Christianity, I can see why it’s swing that way. 

[gnUTE]

Fair point AZ.  I guess what annoys me about these types of arguments is the theme that somehow in the West Christians are being treated unfairly, or members of majorities are losing their rights.  I think it is acceptable to look at ways in which minorities are being treated unfairly, address those issues, and somehow not think that therefore the majority’s rights are therefore infringed upon.  

My example would be the push back against gay rights.  When society sees a problem with gay bashing and tries to include the LGBT community in the hate crimes bill, that does not immediately give them more rights than people not in that group.  When we fight for the rights of consenting adults to marry each other, that does not take away from the rights of people who believe such a union is a sin.  

In Utah currently Muslims are protected under hate crime legislation, and I think that is a good thing, and does not inherently take away the rights of members of another religion.   

[AZswayze]

Completely agree. The religious right deserves every bit of flack it receives, and these ridiculous “religious freedom” bills are nothing more than bigotry cloaked in faith. This Christian persecution complex that has reared its head in recent years has become increasingly dangerous to the rest of us.

[zeous]

Right. The point is we have learned that everyone is better off if NOBODY and NO IDEAS are immune from crticism. Thick skin is the only way to peace and progress in the evolution of a self-determined society.

I thought the video creator expressed this notion beautifully by criticizing both Jesus and Moses and contrasting that with the “line” at which many (not all) Muslims have been indoctrinated to become violent, if crossed.

[deleted]

I’d love to hear the person who downvoted that post to explain the reason they disagree with it.

[SkinyUte]

Good luck with that.

[SkinyUte]

Conservatives demonize Islam, liberals push back.
Liberals demonize Christians, conservatives push back.

What’s the difference?

[AZswayze]

The difference is that you have people, who are trying to combat the ideology itself and the tenets that have fueled terrorism, being cast as bigots and racists simply for broaching the topic. I mentioned Sam Harris earlier. He is pretty far left, but he has been castigated by many prominent liberals for his views on Islam. I have never once heard him say anything that promotes violence, and the only thing he is intolerable of is bad ideas, yet everytime he so much as mentions Islam he is destroyed on social media. Many on the left are far too quick to label others as racists, and it does nothing but stifle important conversations that we need to be having.

[UteThunder]

Sharia Law.

 

[Utahute72]

Demonize Islam or demonize islamic terrorism.

[SkinyUte]

Therein lies the problem with the current tone of criticism. Muslim =! terrorist, yet that’s more often than not the starting paradigm for any dialog. I think we could all agree that assumption would immediately put people within that group on the defensive. Same thing applies the other way, not all Christians are bigots.

If we can we start approaching any discussions without those assumptions, it would go a long way towards constructive progress and understanding. Doubt that will ever be possible, unfortunately.

[zeous]

I agree, though it’s too close for comfort. A closer look at the contents of the Quran and Hadith compared with the Pew results of common beliefs in various Islamic areas shows that too great a percentage subscribe to the nefarious “kill if” and other violent doctrines.

Taking someone’s life is extremely rarely justifiable. Preaching that god requires it, requiring it to be publicly displayed to people of all ages (seen any Youtube vids of stoning by chance? Holy s**t.), and for offenses as minor as disagreeing, is wrong. WRONG. There is no defense of this. AT ALL.

The net effect is the perpetuation of social PTSD, fear (terror), and the use of fear as a weapon to control others (bully psychology). There is supposedly little room for reform within their scriptures, unfortunately, so that task is a difficult one.

[deleted]

It’s simple, ignorance is difficult to criticize: how can I blame someone when they don’t understand that they are committing some sort of wrong?

Hypocrisy is extremely easy to criticize: when someone tells you to love thy neighbor as thyself, to treat others as you would like to be treated, not to kill, but yet constantly comes up with reasons that such truisms don’t apply to them (ie. Western Christianity), I’m quite happy to point out that hypocrisy. And I see more political conservatives hiding under the shield of christianity than not. So yeah, you claim christianity as your moral code, then live it! 

[Utahute72]

My question would be why a law about a specific class of citizen, shouldn’t anti discrimination laws apply to everyone.  

[Utah]

I agree completely. The problem is, sometimes people knowingly or unknowingly treat a certain class incorrectly. So, you create a new law to raise awareness (and sometimes this is a law enforcement problem, ie more willing to let someone off becuase they beat up a gay, etc). 

It’s sad, but sometimes it is the only way to get through to people. Look at BYU/LDS Church. If not for outside pressure with money and laws, they’d still be polygamists, anti-black, etc. 

Unfortunately, we don’t always do what is right on our own good accord. Sometimes we need a push in the right direction to wake up and realize the more correct way. 

[zeous]

Yes. This is exactly why Islam MUST be criticized for the crappy ideas it promotes, as well as individual Muslims who embrace said crappy ideas.

That does not somehow imply that Christianity or Judaism or atheism or Jainism etc is exempt.

[SkinyUte]

That certainly cuts both ways.

Especially since every time Christianity is criticized for their “crappy ideas” (zeous’ term), then we hear an endless feedback loop about how Christians are “under attack” and that their values and beliefs (which are more often than not rooted in discrimination towards anyone who believes differently) require protection in the form of being codified into law.