It’s funny listening to BYU fans and media right now.

God is not at the helm of the church’s institutions?

That is correct.  God is NOT at the helm of ybU-p!  If he were, those aforementioned standards would have also applied to temple recommends.

Those aforementioned unnecessary standards the Honor Code requires were holdovers from the Wilkinson era, who’d instituted them due to his disdain for hippies.  Wilkinson was acting as “man” when he’d mandated them.  NOT as a “prophet”.  God did NOT tell him to do that.  He did that entirely on his own.

I understand what you are saying. That is a belief about BYU that I had not heard before. Do you know of others who hold this belief?

Yes.  Literally everybody I know.  What a teeny-tiny bubble you must live in to have never heard that before.

I have led a very sheltered life. How did you become so knowledgeable?

By NOT living a very sheltered life.  And because I’m intellectually curious enough to ask questions, do research, and use logic.

@philadelphiaute, I was up late last evening, pondering our discussion from yesterday. I talked about my learnings with my wife, as well.

I wanted to ask, besides the Church Educational System, which other programs/institutions of the church have also lost Heavenly Father’s control due to standards/practices above and beyond the standards/practices required for a temple recommend?

I can think of two, and I am sure there are many others – the church missionary program and the temple ordinances themselves. Which others have you uncovered?

Also, my wife wants to prepare a brief discussion about it for her mutual lesson tomorrow. Would you please point her to the scriptures she should visit?

You’re an idiot.  God never “lost control” of ybU-p.  He was never “in control” to begin with.  Why don’t you and your wife do a little research to find out how ybU-p came into existence in the first place.  I’ll even give you a hint…

Look at whose name is on the university, and whose name is NOT!

https://rsc.byu.edu/called-teach/beginnings-brigham-young-academy-1876-84

I certainly am low-brained. I wish I were more intelligent, but that’s the breaks.

This article states that the founder of BYU was called to do so by a prophet of God. Do you not consider Brigham Young to be the successor to Joseph Smith, Elohim’s mouthpiece on earth?

The article does not state that God told Brigham Young to establish a school named after himself.  Brigham Young did that on his own accord.  He was not acting as a “prophet” in instructing Maeser to establish a new school.  He was acting as a “man“.  Just like he was when he’d said…

“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned.”

“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind…and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin…the children of Ham were to be the ‘servant of servants,’ and no power under heaven could hinder it…If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

Not every word or deed of a prophet is divine.  You are indeed low-brained.

Thank you. How does one determine when a prophet is acting as a “prophet” or as a “man” for a specific occurrence?
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

You’re one of those arrogant losers who can’t admit it when he’s been proven wrong.  And this is manifested by your desperate attempt to deviate from the subject.  Just look at this thread.  This is about whether or not ybU-p is a beacon of hypocrisy.  And it is.  This has been proven, and you’ve failed to disprove it.  Your attempt to change the parameters of the argument and/or move the goal posts won’t work on me, because unlike you, I can stay on topic.

Yes, my mind is always scattered. My apologies for deterring us from topic. Let’s get back on topic.

BYU is a beacon of hypocrisy because they have hair and beard standards that are not in the requirements for a temple recommend.

Is there more to the topic that I missed?

Yes.  If you’re a football player, you can get caught driving under the influence, in a car teeming with drug paraphrenalia, and not even lose any playing time.

On the other hand, if you’re a regular student, you can get suspended for far less.

BYU certainly has a different honor code process for athletes than it does for its regular student body. Similarly, there is a different honor code process for non-members. This is simply policy/practice, not hypocrisy.

Who am I to question our Heavenly Father in his decisions regarding such things? I have faith in his plan.

If you think that God is at the head of ybU-p — and especially after all those levels of institutional hypocrisy that I’d provided you proof of — then what you have isn’t called “faith in God”.  It’s called “naivete”.  

Pointing out one’s displeasure at God’s actions is not proof that God is not acting. 

Again, you’re off topic.  I’d already proved to you that ybU-p had never been an act of God, so “God’s actions” are moot to this point.  That was “Brigham Young’s” project, and when he was acting as a “man”. 

It still IS Brigham Young’s project, but now it’s being led by OTHER leaders who are “acting as a man”….not a “prophet”.

I’m sorry for to go off topic. One doesn’t prove something by using bold script.

No, but one DOES prove something by posting a TON of evidence.  Which I HAD!  How miserable for you.

There is nothing in what you have said that proves anything. You have written conjecture and opinion about the same topics that I consider to be the will of God, calling them proof. I could as easily call the things that I have said proofs of the contrary, but that would be intellectual weakness on my part. Plain and simple for me, for I am a simple mind, the Church Educational System, which includes BYU, is an institution run by Elohim. Reject it if you will, but I cannot.

What are you talking about?  What conjecture?  I even gave you the validating links.  Between you and me, I’m the only one who HAD proved anything.  You’re the one with all the “conjecture and opinion”.  And that’s why you’ve failed to provide any evidence that God runs ybU-p.  

I’ve proven that ybU-p is a beacon of hypocrisy (see links), which subsequently proves that God is NOT the head of it.  You’ve proven nothing more than the fact that you’re remarkably ignorant and stubborn.

1. God is not in control of BYU because hair and beard requirements are different than the requirements for a temple recommend, and there are different consequences for an athlete violating the honor code versus a regular student.

—This is not proof. It is your opinion that these facts lead to your desired conclusion. I see these as God’s plan.

2. https://rsc.byu.edu/called-teach/beginnings-brigham-young-academy-1876-84

—In this article, I read that a prophet of God called a person to found BYU. You say, “The article does not state that God told Brigham Young to establish a school named after himself.” Stating this is not proof. It is your opinion that a call from a prophet is not a request from God.

3. Brigham Young’s comments about plural marriage and black skin.

—You see these as the prophet acting as a man. I see them as comments from a prophet of God. Have you read the scriptures on these subjects during this time period?

4. Football player, drunk driving, drugs

—see my response to point 1

“1. God is not in control of BYU because hair and beard requirements are different than the requirements for a temple recommend, and there are different consequences for an athlete violating the honor code versus a regular student.”

That absolutely IS proof. God is “no respector of persons” God never commanded we throw people out of our churches and temples because of the way they look. Such standards are based on an “image” that Wilkinson was trying to convey, and “image” is akin to “pride” — which is not of God. Had God been in charge of ybU-p, he would have commanded the “prophet” to end those “prideful” standards.

Also, even ybU-p doesn’t claim that God is at its helm.

“2. In this article, I read that a prophet of God called a person to found BYU. You say, ‘The article does not state that God told Brigham Young to establish a school named after himself.’ Stating this is not proof. It is your opinion that a call from a prophet is not a request from God.”

On the contrary, that absolutely is proof too. Because if God told Brigham Young to do this, Brigham Young would have said, “God commanded me to…[fill in the blank].”

“3. You see these as the prophet acting as a man. I see them as comments from a prophet of God.”

That’s only because you’re an idiot, and too embarrassed to admit when he’d been proven wrong. Young was speaking as a “man”. When he says things like, “This will always be so — when we KNOW that it isn’t — you know that he wasn’t speaking as a “prophet”. So unless you can prove to me that we still currently execute members participating in biracial/mixed marriages…

…he was wrong! And so are you.

“4. Football player, drunk driving, drugs…see my response to point 1”

Your point is moot. I’d already given you the links. Refusing to read the articles does not change the fact that they happened just as I said they had. And just because I’d linked to you two articles, that doesn’t mean that they were the only examples that exist either. There are more. But the point in providing you those two is so you can juxtapose what the football player did, who’d broken the Honor Code — AND THE LAW — to what the non-athlete did, who’d broken no law whatsoever. Which one got booted?

And for the record, I didn’t even mention the “Spencer Hadley” affair, because while he most certainly DID break the Honor Code, a 21+ yr old man doing alcoholic body shots off of Las Vegas strippers doesn’t violate federal, state, or local statutes. So what Ah You did was way worse than Hadley — who in turn, had done way worse than that coed ybU-p booted.

I am the only one providing “proof” and “logic” here. All you’re offering is nothing more than “opinion” and “conjecture”. And you’re not even arguing against my case. You’re just being “contradictory”, and that’s not valid as an argument.

Show me proof that God is at the helm of ybU-p. That proof can be in the form of an official statement from either ybU-p, OR the prophet. Anything less will be you’re tacit admission that you’re wrong, and that you KNOW that you’re wrong, but are just to embarrassed and cowardly to admit it.

I am always embarrassed and a coward. churchofjesuschrist.org article

Although each school within the CES portfolio has a distinctive contribution to make to the whole Church Educational System, Elder Gilbert said they also all have a “unifying purpose and mission to develop disciples of Jesus Christ who can be leaders in the Church, in their homes and in their workplaces.”

The work that each institution is doing to increase Latter-day Saints’ chances for learning — both secularly and spiritually — is an important part of the work of the Lord. In the Church News podcast, Elder Gilbert said: “I fundamentally believe [the Lord is] preparing the world for the return of the Savior. And part of that is the work He’s doing to gather His Church by building capacity and leadership through education all across the world.”

What was the point of that response?  That didn’t say that God (or Jesus for that matter) is at the helm of ybU-p.  So case closed little bro.  You lost, and have thereby tacitly admitted what I’d been saying all along.  ybU-p is led by “man”; not “God”.

How do you interpret the last sentence?

You mean the part that started with, “I fundamentally believe…” and ended with “education all across the world“???

1.  ybU-p had not cornered the market on global education.

2.  “I fundamentally believe” is not the same as “I bear testimony to you“

3.  Elder Clark Gilbert is not a prophet of God.

4.  The article you’d quoted only stated that Elder Gilbert “believes” that “the Lord is using education to hasten His work.”  He did NOT say that he “believes” that “the Lord is using ybU-p to hasten His work.”  And neither did it say that He was at the helm of ybU-p. 

5.  The article you’d quoted wasn’t even about ybU-p.  It was about the “Pathway Worldwide” program. 

Here is what He is at the Helm of…

* “God is at the Helm” by Elder M. Russell Ballard 

*”The Lord Is at the Helm” by Gordon B. Hinckley

See?  The “church”.  Not ybU-p.  If he were at the helm of ybU-p, why had Presidents Ballard and Hinckley left them off their list?

I respond below to your points. Please respond to mine in kind.

A. First, I want to be clear. You are trying to tell a person of faith that the Church Educational System, which includes the seminary program and BYU, is not part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and is thus not directed by Heavenly Father. Proof would include statements by church leaders indicating that CES is not part of the church.

1. This statement has nothing to do with whether or not the CES, of which BYU is a part, is God’s institution. Please elaborate.

2. I agree with you, but how does this dictate that BYU is not part of the church?

3. He is a general authority.

4. The article is about the CES which includes BYU. I quote and bold for emphasis, “The work that each institution [within CES] is doing to increase Latter-day Saints’ chances for learning…is an important part of the work of the Lord. In the Church News podcast, Elder Gilbert said: “I fundamentally believe [the Lord is] preparing the world for the return of the Savior. And part of that is the work He’s doing to gather His Church by building capacity and leadership through education all across the world.” I.e., the CES program is part of God’s work.

5. The article is about the entire CES program of which BYU and the Pathway program are members.

B. The two talks you post are not leaders of the church listing off which institutions of the church are of God and which are not. Please elaborate on what you find in these talks that make you think BYU is not part of the church.

You were not asked to provide proof that God was at the helm of the church.  You were asked to provide proof that He was at the helm of ybU-p.   Yet all you’d done was respond with word salad that does NOT prove that God runs ybU-p.  It proves that it’s run by “man”.

Just because the church owns ybU-p, that doesn’t mean that ybU-p is the church.  God appoints the prophets.  Man appoints the president of ybU-p.  God does not appoint the president of ybU-p.

Here is ybU-p’s own website: 

“The mission of Brigham Young University – founded, supported, and guided by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life.”

The website does NOT say, “the mission of Brigham Young University – founded, supported, and guided by God the Father and/or His son Jesus Christ – is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life.”

There are all these links available where proclamations that God is at the helm of the LDS church.  But there isn’t even ONE that points to his leadership of ybU-p.  God is no more at the helm of ybU-p than he is at any other university in the world.

It’s your pride that’s preventing you from being able to learn.  You wear your religion on your sleeve, and believe that you can exalt yourself via dogmatic observances to extremely narrow idealogies – which for the record isn’t even LDS doctrine.  How can you call yourself a man of faith, when you don’t even know our tenets?  That’s not “faith”.  That’s “naivete”.

I completely understand what you are saying. And, I thank you for the clarification. I was not trying to prove that God is the head of the church. I was not trying to prove anything. I was discussing my belief that God is the head of BYU. You were trying to prove he is not. You have not proven that, no matter how much you believe you have. As for those things you said about me in the last paragraph, you don’t know me. If you’d like to continue to attempt to prove God is not at the helm of BYU, please respond to the points I outlined in 1-5, A & B above.

And, I believe that this is semantics. I don’t see a fundamental difference between the two. For, who guides the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

“The mission of Brigham Young University – founded, supported, and guided by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life.”

 

The website does NOT say, “the mission of Brigham Young University – founded, supported, and guided by God the Father and/or His son Jesus Christ – is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life.”

It’s not semantics.  You’re just saying that because you’re the sort of prideful person that can’t admit when he’s wrong.  That was a carefully worded mission statement.  There’s a REASON why the church ALWAYS claims God as its helm, but NEVER does so likewise for ybU-p.

You were tasked to provide evidence, and you failed.  Claiming that God leads the prophets, and one of the prophets leads ybU-p, therefore, God leads ybU-p is a fail.  That would be like me claiming God leads the prophets, the prophets lead the bishops, the bishops leads the president of the deacons quorum, therefore God is the president of the deacons quorum.

I on the other hand provided tons of evidence — including the church’s own website.  And that’s when this debate ended, and in my favor.

You’re not a “man of faith”.  You’re a “man of self-aggrandizement”.  That’s why you wear your religion on your sleeve, and invent your own doctrines.  I remember way back in the Old Testament, God gave Moses the 10 Commandments.  But by the time Jesus was born, the Jews had something like 5,000 of them.  It wasn’t because God issued newer edicts, but rather because of people like you, who were pridefully trying to impress others of their piety via introducting new rules and concepts that really weren’t of Him.  It’s people like you that make the rest of us LDS members look bad.  I’ll bet you’re born and raised in Utah, and thought you were better than every body else who wasn’t a member of the “one true church”.

I was not tasked with anything. I claimed that my faith places Heavenly Father at the helm of BYU. You set out to prove otherwise. Each time I let you know that faith trumps all. Who are we to question God’s plan?

I do honestly appreciate your efforts as you educate me about my faith.

75 in a 35 mph zone! And while intoxicated smh.