On this day in 1872 Yellowstone National Park was "born"

[PorterRockwell]

Happy birthday Yellowstone and many thanks to our forefathers for having the forethought, wisdom and insight to save such magnficent places for the People of The United States  

[mokus]

Here is your birthday cake, courtesy of Trump and the republicans.  Blow out the candles!

[Minnesota Ute]

Yes, you can thank republicans for abundant cheap fuel that raises the standard of living for eveyrone including the poorest among us.  Actually, no, you can’t thank republicans or democrats, you can thank the free market, but at least republicans don’t spend a lot of energy vilifying them.

[Stradlater]

Thanks republicans. Short term profits are all that matters.

[UtahFanSir]

Easy to target Republicans. The issue is much broader in my opinion.

My thoughts align where: Can Corporations Be Trusted To Do The Right Thing…

Some folks believe government needs to get out of the way completely, let companies do whatever and be accountable to customers and shareholders only. I don’t want to live in that world.

I am constantly reminded that most legislation is reactive to egregious performance by corporations. Like some firm all the time somewhere is pulling something in the name of profit that is not good. We absolutely must understand human motivation of the profit incentive. Incentives bring on certain behavior that may not favor you.

Now what the GOP wants to do is remove almost all consumer protection. That is the lobbyist whispering. I’m not happy about that. I purchased a car recently, and the documents demanded that I forgo the option of joining a class action suit. Why? If companies did a better job of demonstrating they can be trusted, I would. They don’t.

I don’t believe that left unfettered, all companies would do the right thing. Some demonstrate all the time that is not true.

From Forbes: Business and Government.

[mokus]

Gotta love that free market!  Spread that free market love all around!  Spray it out into the forest and the ocean!

Funny how the same people that get their panties in a bunch about subsidizing solar don’t have a problem with throwing billions at big oil.  These days solar is catching up with other energies, can’t wait for people to cry about dirty energy needing subsidizing.  “PLEASE GIVE US MONEY, MR GOVERNMENT.  WE CANT PAY SHAREHOLDERS, ER…FOR JOBS WITHOUT GOVERNMENT HELP!”  Gotta love that free market hypocrisy.

 

[Minnesota Ute]

I’m really done with this board, sorry Tony, but there is not enough discussion of Utah sports, coupled with a rather shallow and ignorant discussion of politics.  

You can certainly post pictures of issues as if they are the norm, they aren’t.  You can also argue as if government regulation prevents those issues, it doesn’t.  And you can also argue as if corporations don’t care whether these issues happen, they do.  You can also argue that me or others love subsidies to oil or other industries you think we favor even though we decry subsidies to renewables, we don’t.

Here is the reality, an environmental disaster costs a company far more than the cost of any fine.  But also the reality is that s**t happens in any industry because people aren’t perfect and they make mistakes.  This happens in every organization, including in the government.  However the profit motive in private industry has a way of correcting because again, the cost of the disaster is orders of magnitude more expensive than the fine.  Most industries go above and beyond the regulatory requirements in many areas for that reason and an open minded and experienced people know that because they see it first hand.  The real problem with regulation is that often the cost of “compliance” is substantial even when the regulation doesn’t actually produce the result for which it was established, and instead just creates barriers to entry and political rent/regulatory capture.

Second, our issue with renewables is that the subsidies are political rent to industries that are not viable otherwise and give people like you the false perception that this is a choice.  IT IS NOT, it is physically impossible to replace fossil fuels with renewables.  Its a simple math problem, so hate away, but the reality is that fossil fuels have done more for poverty than any govenrment program every has or will.

I love when folks like Porter throw out price gouging, there is no such thing in a free market.  That’s the whole point.

[UtahFanSir]

Nice knowing you. 

[UtahFanSir]

Since I have raised the ire of a few here, allow me to offer why I said, “Nice knowing you” to Minnesota Ute. First off, I meant it. He and I have had a number of off-line in-depth discussions on UF.N. We are good.

Yet this forum is open access. No need to announce that you are coming or going because you don’t like some facet of it. No need to censure certain folks for their views you disagree with. The world is full of differing views. Who are we to be so arrogant to think ours are the only ones that count, are correct?

All users can opt out of categories. All users can block a user.

Tony likely gets revenue from clicks, Politics gets clicks. Don’t like something, a mature response is to opt out of the category. No need for drama. No need to pressure the site owner to change it. No need to call out individual posters, IMHO (this is in reference to anyone).

MU has one of the most extreme right wing views on this site, from my take. I know that. I’m okay with his views even though I rarely agree with him. I’ve learned something from him by reading them, even when I disagree.

Bottom line for me: If someone is not prepared to opt out of politics, can’t ignore obnoxious posters, then I say sincerely, “Nice knowing you.” That goes for all of you opinionated pricks. ;–)

I’m not begging anyone to stay on this forum.

[Stradlater]

C’mon, don’t go. It’s forum banter. No big deal. But if you do don’t broadcast it.

[Newbomb Turk]

Yeah. Businesses are going to regulate themselves, despite the bottom line. Right.

[Puget Ute]

You know which country has an almost perfect example of unregulated free-market capitalism?

China.

[mokus]

I would shake my head at this if it wasn’t for the fact that the knockoffs are hilarious.  And full of lead.  Probably.

 

[Puget Ute]

That phone is a perfect example of a company being able to copy/paste and build/sell a nearly-exact replica, without worrying about running afoul of regulations.

[PorterRockwell]

You could just u check politics. And yes I’m aware the thread got hijacked but you shouldn’t leave. You do bring a lot of good basketball takes to the table

You decry the lack of Ute news. The board is growing There isn’t much Ute news to report. I posted several Ute r later things yesterday. Not as much to post or share today

[Tacoma Ute]

Please stay Minny! I love having you on the board. I *usually* avoid the Politics category too unless I’m in the mood. We’re all just people with opinions. I disagree with many of my favorite posters on many things but they’re great Utes and I love ’em. Sports talk will pick up with the PAC tourney and spring camp coming up, not to mention the NFL draft.

I made an exit post on UFN once. I regretted it afterwards and still do. If you need a break just take a few days off and then come back and read through the sports posts. Besides people seem to be doing a great job on this board of keeping things in the proper categories.

[Tony (admin)]

You could exercise your freedom to uncheck politics. Oh crap that wouldn’t have worked. This is a misc category post that deteriorated into a politics argument.  I suggest doing what I do, which is as soon as I see anything politics related I immediately move on.

[zeous]

The meme describes the fact that the market is not free. Separation of commerce and state needs to be a thing, just not very practical.

[Puget Ute]

This response is interesting, because this industry is a huge recipient of corporate welfare. And I know you are viscerally opposed to that (as should we all).

[Charlie]

Unfortunately, most folks in the discussion: solar vs oil and gas took only minutes to form an opinion. No idea how everything in their house got there, how their food get there, how everything is made, and how they leave home. Little understanding where all the electricity comes from and how. Little understanding how all that will change and when. They see energy ‘falling out of the sky’ with too little understanding of how lithium is mined, batteries are made, solar panels are made, and the eventual landfills for all. They may have never seen a produced and plugged gas well or a landfill for ‘used’ natural gas because they can often be difficult to find.

Accidents happen but can only be understood in the big picture of how often while how much is accomplished. Some would eliminate electricity with the first accidental death, eliminate hospitals with the first failed surgery, and fill in all swimming pools with the first drowning. Others can realize that infrastructure like pipelines and petro plants can be managed to produce benefits that are so much greater than the risks and downsides.

Solar and other new energy sources have a bright future, do doubt. Each year will bring the cost down, efficiency up and requirement for tax subsidies down. It will all happen, but it will not happen fast enough for those that do not account for conversion cost and timeframes and other big picture factors.

Last, I believe many environmentally sensitive folks would be shocked if they were to meet the vast majority of people that work in the oil and gas industry and learn that they are every bit as much interested in keeping the environment clean and may spend more time outdoors enjoying the landscape than their critics.

[Stradlater]

The picture you paint of “environmentally sensitive folks” is patronizing, cartoonish and ridiculous. 

[BulgieUte]

This was a nice post about an awesome park.

Was it the best place to voice this political opinion?

[PorterRockwell]

yeah, I should’ve known that might happen. I hoped it wouldn’t but it did. I tried to keep the OP as “Safe” as possible to avoid that very thing. oh well.

[PorterRockwell]

Very disappointed that people chose to turn something that should be remembered and celebrated into a political thread.  not surpised though. And Minnesota  IF the energy producers are being “villified” as you put it perhaps it’s because of their staunch opposition to environmental regulation of their industry, their price gouging and history envrinomental spills.

IF it costs us each a little bit to have cleaner burning fuel and cleaning air etc that’s an acceptable tradeoff. 

[mokus]

Sorry, the topic is timely and it enrages me.

Edit: Meh, I’m not as sorry as I thought I was. If it is so great, it is a big f**king deal that we fight selling it off like a truck full of underaged sex slaves, or it won’t have any more birthdays. Energy is literally falling out of the sky and we would rather vomit black sludge all over the surface of the earth. Now is the future, it is time we stop acting like mole people and start innovating.

[PorterRockwell]

I am enraged that the extraction industry now has a wish list of shills in office to benefit them. I didn’t include it in this post because I merely wanted to wish Yellowstone a happy birthday and thank those responsible

[UtahFanSir]

It is important to recognize that the vast majority of transportation needs liquid fuel. If electric cars (and trains) become a significant part of transportation, a power plant will be the fuel. Some of that electricity can be solar. Solar is growing but is still a small fraction of generation. Costs have come down while if one includes capital costs, has not been the cheapest source. That said I will gladly pay the higher price to get it.

[UteThunder]

Given your posting history on environmental issues, I don’t think it is a stretch for anyone to think your OP was a veiled commentary about the current political climate in regards to national parks and public lands.

[PorterRockwell]

My OP was very clear in what it was. Nothing veiled whatsoever.

[DieHardUtahUtesFan]

I think you could star in a soap opera called “As the Broken Record Turns”

[PorterRockwell]

perhaps. in the case of this post it was not meant to be political. Just wanted to share what I found to be a fun fact and compliment and thank the people that had the foresight to preserve things. I probably should have known someone would turn it political.

[Minnesota Ute]

http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/01/moral-outrage-is-self-serving

 

1. The more guilt over one’s own potential complicity, the more desire “to punish a third-party through increased moral outrage at that target.” For instance, participants in study one read about sweatshop labor exploitation, rated their own identification with common consumer practices that allegedly contribute, then rated their level of anger at “international corporations” who perpetuate the exploitative system and desire to punish these entities. The results showed that increased guilt “predicted increased punitiveness toward a third-party harm-doer due to increased moral outrage at the target.”

[PorterRockwell]

Yeah that’s it. Or maybe it’s because some people realize that together we accomplish more and that treating other people right, helping hose less fortunate etc is the smart thing to do.

Never mind engaging you and a couple of others here is pointless. You have your deeply held conservative believes and nothing will change your mind

[DieHardUtahUtesFan]

Hose the less fortunate? You are a monster!

[PorterRockwell]

You think they call me the destroying angel for nothing??

[Utahute72]

I’m looking forward to the new special on “Utah’s Parks – Troubled Edens” on KUED.  There are some longterm issues with the program and it will be interesting to see how this special addresses them.

[PorterRockwell]

When is thst airing? I want to see it.

[Guido]

It starts on March 29th.

 

[DieHardUtahUtesFan]

Didn’t realize what I was in for when I clicked Show Replies on this one.

[Tacoma Ute]

I’ve never understood right wingers who seem to be against national parks. Surely a balance can be found between preserving natural wonders while not harming industry. I’m right wing on most things but I absolutely love our national parks. Some of the best times of my life have been spent in them. I wish we had more of them. Thankfully some of them were preserved before it was too late.

[AZswayze]

Hyperpartisanship in action. If you dare defend anything deemed environmentally friendly you’re a tree hugging liberal s**tbird. It’s a terrible trend that began decades ago, and has become one of the biggest problems facing America. Both sides have their issues that don’t necessarily jive with the nature of their respective parties, but since it’s become politicized you better be on board if you’re a good Republican/Democrat.

[Tacoma Ute]

I agree wholeheartedly Swayze. I have a brother who is like that. Every time the subject of preserving a beautiful area comes up he starts raving about “hippy, commie environmentalists.” I don’t get that mentality.

[AZswayze]

I have several family members and friends who are avid hunters, skiers and general outdoorsmen, but they seem to support every piece of legislation that puts corporations over environment. I’m not saying all legislation should necessarily favor the environment either. There are good bills and bad bills, and some bills that just need some tweaking, but hyperpartisanship has created an atmosphere where the instant a new law is presented it’s classified one way or another, and shot down by the other side. It’s maddening.

[Newbomb Turk]

For too long, it’s been not “what is the idea?”, it’s “whose idea is it?”