Defund the University – tired argument?

[DataUte]

I don’t really want to get too much into politics, but this is a political question. I didn’t grow up in Utah, don’t live in Utah (my wife did grow up there). I know about the audit after Coach K cancelled a few games with TDS and I’ve heard the argument – I feel it’s such a tired argument:

If we don’t play BYU-P every year, they’re going to defund our hospital.

If this happened, couldn’t the University sue the state? Or fight it in the courts? This is blackmail, extortion, whatever you want to call it. To play a game with a private school. How could they argue if we switched off with Utah St. or other state schools since that helps the economy in state no matter what? Couldn’t it be taken to the Utah Supreme Court? It would be obvious that the legistlature would be holding funds from the state’s flagship university and hurting the education and health of it’s citizens for vindictive reasons – there are enough quotes and support to know exactly what is going on. 

Now, I know legislatures determine budgets and the court can’t force them into it, but there are enough non-zoobs as well as non-members that don’t care about a game that could make an uproar if they hurt future education and health opportunities, right?

[AlohaUte]

I’m so tired of Ute fans complaining about the BYU game. It is so effing stupid to want to cancel that game permanently. You are as bad as the morons on Cougarboard.

-Rivalry is what makes College Football great. We should embrace our rivalry instead of throw it in the trash.
-This is the one game every year that fans who couldn’t care less about Utah actually will somewhat pay attention to (with the exception of rare years like this one when Utah is nationally relevant).
-Even when the game doesn’t matter in the least (like last season) it is still the most fun, most intense, and most passionate game of the season.
-It’s a huge money maker game and practically an event in the State of Utah.

I know all your tired counter-arguments, but they hold little water when you complain about this game, but don’t bat an eye at playing San Jose State or Northern Illinois.

P.S. stop being childish and calling them Zoobs, that’s as lame as them calling us Yewts.

[Italy88]

Read your first three sentences and then thought; “This guy is as stupid as the BYU fans on Cougarboard.”  Couldn’t read the rest of it.

[DataUte]

<edited> I misread who the previous message was directed to, took it personally, and acted like a douche canoe. Sorry for being that. And forgetting this is a message board to talk about our favorite team. Go Utes!

[Italy88]

Congratulations on your PhD…I wasn’t responding to you though. I responded to AlohaUte and his asinine comments. Didn’t think anything was wrong with your question.

[DataUte]

Oh … Sorry about that. Note to self – pay attention to reply levels <sheepish>

[EagleMountainUte]

Dropping the PhD placard and calling people stupid makes you more stupid. A lot of people are smart but that doesn’t make them wise.

Welcome to ignore. 

[Tony (admin)]

Let’s all take a chill pill.  We’re on the same team.

 

[utefansince79]

I’ll just throw THIS out there.  I do feel we should alternate BYU and USU and consider BYU a “B” game (unless they perhaps get into the Big 12 or other big conference, NOT the MWC).    

But the crowd during last year’s comeback was one of the loudest I’ve seen there in my 40 years of following the Utes.

Of course coming back from down 20 (I believe only the early 70s comeback against Zona was larger in Ute history) is always going to have a loud crowd.

 

 

 

[Italy88]

I made the dumb mistake of sitting in the BYU section for that game…it was 3 quarters of pure hell…then a quarter of complete joy.  I’ll never sit there again.

The problem with alternating BYU and USU as the “B” game is that currently Utah is scheduling BYU as their “A” game.  I would much rather drop BYU for the Michigan’s, Arkansas’ of the world.  Obviously it’s not always possible, but I would like to see less BYU.

[Utahute72]

Historically, Utah State is our traditional rival. Utah/Utah State used to be played the day after Thanksgiving and BYU back then was little more than a glorified HS.

[DataUte]

Thanks for not reading. I’m just looking for more flexibility and freedom to make our own choices and that they aren’t dictated to us by someone that shouldn’t have control over it. I’m not saying kill the game. I’m saying more flexibility in scheduling would be great like the thoughts of switching off BYU and Utah St. or occassionally having neither to enhance the schedule. I don’t like SJSU or NIU (both B games), but I think we would still have them with BYU or not. ABC scheduling. A=P5, B=G5, C=warmup (low G5, other low conference)

2020 BYU, Montana State (C), Wyoming (B)

2021 Weber St. (C), BYU, SDSU (B)

2022 BYU, SUU (C), SDSU (B)

2023 Weber St. (C), Baylor (A?), BYU (B?)

2024 SUU (C), BYU, Baylor (A?)

2025 Wyoming (B)

2026 Houston (B), Arkansas (A?)

2027 Houston (B)

2028 Arkansas (A?)

 

See a pattern? BYU is filling the A spot rather than the B. But if they are the B, then adding an A make the schedule pretty tough. Are we going to play them in 2026 with Arkansas and Houston on the schedule? That’s a tough schedule that year. And with trying to get 7 home games when we have 5 PAC-12 games, it’s tough with a regular home and home. Goals should be: get to a bowl (6 wins), with PAC-12 South (means staying healthy), win PAC-12, make CFP.

On a last note, the rivalry is mostly church-culture based. And if anything is tired, it’s that. Being out of state makes it a lot better but is still annoying. I treat this game no different than any other B school we are playing. Win, avoid injuries. Do I travel for it? No. Did I travel for Michigan, ND, etc.? Yes.

[PhiladelphiaUte]

AlohaUte:

You create a straw man when you claim we “don’t bat an eye at playing…Northern Illinois“.  Because we HAVE!

As for SJSU, that game gives us another game in Northern California — aka, a recruiting hotspot.  I have no problem with us playing SJSU or Fres St.  ybU-p on the other hand is NOT a recruiting hotspot, and we can pretty much take our pick of the litter down there anyway.

And no, it’s not lame calling them zoobs.  They are what they are.  Zoobs.  “Yewts” however is racist.  Big difference.

[BulgieUte]

Yewts is only racist when you take it out of context. Everybody knows it refers to the team name not the tribe name. It would be best to save our energy to fight real hate. Meanwhile you want to call them zoobs but then hide behind “that’s racist” claims when they call you a name. Either talk smack fairly or stay out of it.

[GameForAnyFuss]

Since this is directed at me…

I work for the University. I’m not in the athletic department. I don’t work in Ruth’s office. I just know what I’ve been told by people who do, and that is that the legislature is currently forcing us to play BYU-P every year in football and basketball or the people behind this at the state will try to strip funding from UHealth and Huntsman Cancer. Would they succeed? I don’t know. Could the U sue them? Probably, but it would cost a lot. All I know is, the AD’s office and the President’s office agree that they’d rather play the games than fight the battle. The old saying “there are no winners in a war” applies here. Even if we win, we lose.

[DataUte]

Good insights – give in just to keep peace instead of fighting it rather than other, more important battles. It’s just frustrating that politicians can control ‘stupid’ stuff like this (and by ‘stupid’ I only mean that in the big scheme of things, sports are fun but not critical). I’d just like more flexibility to play some other teams while not killing the schedule.

Similar stuff happened with Texas with other schools like Texas Tech and even Baylor and conference affiliation, but there are enough legislatures from many schools that it couldn’t keep traction. In Utah, it’s pretty much a 1-party, 2-school system (yeah, there are some Utah St. and other university people, but it’s not a large enough group).

[GameForAnyFuss]

I admit I do get frustrated when I read posts that start with things like “well, why don’t we just…?” in reference to the BYU-P problem on our schedules. All I want people to understand is:
A. It’s way more complicated than we fans understand. Way, way more. There are so many moving pieces, and the legislature is one of them, but it’s not the only one.
B. The U’s leadership feels the same way we do. They’re not keeping BYU-P on the schedule because they’re obtuse or they’re trying to stick it to us.
C. The University is a behemoth and athletics are not the highest priority. Athletics isn’t even top 5, I’d say. So don’t be surprised when sports priorities take a back seat to other things. And you know what? I’m OK with that.

[Chidojuan]

Is there any indication as to why certain people in the legislature would try to retaliate if the game was cancelled? I admittedly scoffed at your response earlier today when you mentioned that the hospital would be defunded, but you clarified your logic well and I’m finding myself convinced. Why would it be so important to have the game for those people? Revenue wise, I can’t really see an argument for or against it. RES and LES will likely sell well, so that’s a wash. Why else would they push for it?

[GameForAnyFuss]

What they’ll say publicly is that football is all about traditional rivalries and they don’t want this one to die and blah blah blah. What it’s really about is an attempt to keep BYU-P relevant and competitive. They see Utah sprinting by BYU-P and this is a last-gasp attempt to grab onto the back of Utah’s shirt before we’re out of reach.

[Chidojuan]

That makes sense regarding football, but logically it seems like it might be in the best interest of TDS to just let their athletics die. The rivalry is all negative PR and animosity, so I can’t really see the church leaders involved in the decision being for it. I dunno, it’s weird man, really weird.

[GameForAnyFuss]

I agree with you completely. If I were running the church, I would get rid of all athletics associated with the church (everything from ward basketball to BYU-P athletics). Unfortunately sports brings out the worst in people, and images of athletes behaving badly is not what any church needs right now.

However, at BYU-P/Utah County there’s this weird intersection of culture and doctrine where people honestly think that BYU-P sports is essential to the church being true. The church culture in Utah County is as deeply ingrained as the church doctrine, which is why Utah County mormonism is so unappealing to most of the rest of us LDS folks.

[Duhwayne]

Byu sports, like the church missionary program, is INTERNAL marketing. 

[whitlessham]

Because mormons vote republican (especially byu mormons).  Got to keep them happy or possibly lose a re election.

Life in Utah

[Chidojuan]

Sure, but Utah county isn’t flipping to blue because of a football game. Where’s my fallacy referee…

[Utahute72]

That’s exactly why we need to start beating them soundly, so they ask to quit playing us out of survival.

[Charlie]

Maybe but not that big a deal. Not a hill to die on. The game holds more interest than almost any non-conference game recently other than Michigan. In an era where almost a quarter of college football are cupcakes, why complain? For all its hair, the game is much better than the other 2 of choice this year. To be honest, the problem with the Y and USU is they get sky high to play us causing a drain of energy all for little national recognition if we win but risking so much emotion if we lose. We will always get more from those two than any other opponents they play and loosing would be so much worse than loosing to Idaho State.

USU declined playing a 2 for 1 settling that for now. Currently, we have a good plan going for the Y. It is so much better if they lose interest in playing every year than if we dictate that to them. Can we revisit this when it becomes the game of least interest on our schedule? Yes it is irritating to be told what to do but not so much when it really is not that big a deal.

[AgouraUte]

I would be suprised if we play BYU in the years we play Arkansas. I think Harlan has something in the works.

[loyter]

Playing BYU is dumb. They are too good to be considered a “practice” game, but not good enough to be considered a “good win”. It’s also quite an ugly rivalry that brings out the worst in both fan bases.

They are also not going to help us with recruiting…at all. If we play San Jose St., we can recruit the Bay Area while we are there – get their kids to come to the game, throw a party with strippers, etc.. Winning consistently might help with the Utah kids, but they’d come to Utah anyway based on conference and success and rankings.

Utah sells out every game, and has since 2002, so I can’t see where BYU, as an opponent is any more lucrative than any other opponent, except if we get a cut of their gate.

Sticking with this game helps cement Utah as a small time school. Opponents like Michigan and Arkansas and Notre Dame are what’s needed to raise the national perception of the program. (That, or a trip to the CFB Playoff)

I understand the politics makes it so difficult that it’s not worth fighting the fight, but I’d like nothing more than to drop them forever. In my opinion, dropping them from all future schedules is how Utah finally wins the rivalry.

[Utahute72]

BYU has jacked up the price for the Utah game (equivalent seats for Utah -$57; USC or Washington – $27), but is having trouble selling them (surprise, surprise). So unless Utah fans buy a bunch there will be empty seats short of some kind of give away.